Hmm...I think many evangelicals do. That is the problem though, evangelicals are good at admitting to, confessing and intellectualising social issues. It seems the best response to poverty, deprivation and social injustice is to...write an academic paper about it? Once you get that published lots of people can talk about it... Evangelicals are really good at that kind of thing, but not as good as getting off their butts to actually DO & BE church in a hurting world. That said, if there are any evangelicals who like their comfort zones and just want to tithe to feel good...by all means please donate some to the section 21 a group of student friends & I started. We help orphans and struggling school kids...we have lots of great ideas to implement also but implementation costs money. I'll support any church that can support the cause :) Love, Ash. PS: I am also an evangelical(to some degree)...God just kicked me on the butt...and that made all the difference.

Posted by: Ashley Visagie 21 Mar, 2008 - 23:32:08

Well, there is big difference between "public debate and awareness" and "sin". The former requires common sense, the latter nonsense. As always, the church needs repentance, atonement and payments to stay in business. "As the penny in the coffer rings, the soul from Purgatory springs."

Posted by: Oubaas 26 Mar, 2008 - 13:31:20

Oubaas,

Just an update for you. Purgatory doesn't exist anymore. The Roman Catholic church has officially apologised for indulgences and don't do them anymore. So, not sure of the intent behind your comment, but if it was to bash the RC Church, then you're about 200 years out of date.

If not, I am not sure I understand your comment.

Graeme

Posted by: Graeme 26 Mar, 2008 - 17:34:21

Actually Graeme, you stand to be corrected on the doctrine of purgatory. There has been a lightening of the dogma of limbo (based upon a 2007 document).

But the doctrine of purgatory as a place of punishment and purification for people after death still exists...we are not 200 years late in criticising the catholic "church" for their unbiblical dogma.

The link below is off the Vatican website
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM...

Posted by: Brent 31 Mar, 2008 - 08:38:33

OK, fair point.

Now, let us consider all the non-Biblical things my church believes in... How easy is it to throw stones at other people, without looking at oneself?

I think it's fantastic that they have added to the list of sins. The things they have added deserve to be considered evil and sinful!

Posted by: Graeme 31 Mar, 2008 - 10:36:48

Graeme...fair enough...I think ALL churches have some tradition and doctrine that are human inventions (not all bad but definitely unbiblical) what is an issue for me with the RC church is the fact that these issues have to do with salvation (ie essentials of the faith)

I try hard to subscribe to the dictum:
In the essentials unity
In non-essentials liberty
And in all things charity

Although what is essential/non-essential is debatable :)

Secondly I agree wholeheartedly with you that the list of sins that they have added are LONG overdue for all of us. It would be interesting to see how long it takes for the rest of us to follow suite...

Posted by: Brent 31 Mar, 2008 - 10:51:42

Graeme, Are these "new sins" defined in detail anywhere? That is, how do you know if you are "causing social injustice?" or a part of the "cause of poverty?" At what point do you become "obscenely wealthy?" This assumes that there is a standard of wealth that is appropriate and non-sinful. What is that point?

These sins seem especially elusive and difficult to pin on anybody in particular. Perhaps that's the problem. As the Church claims, they are "social sins." People will not take responsibility for sin if it is social. If its everyone's fault, then who pays for it? Unless people acknowledge their individual contribution to "causing social injustice" (whatever that means) they will not admit to being a part of the problem. Sins are acknowledged and admitted by individuals, not groups; hence there is no such thing as as "social sins."

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

Posted by: Noah 31 Mar, 2008 - 16:25:36

You can start with Lev 4:13.

The book of Habakkuk deals extensively with the sins of the city of Babylon. All of chapter 2 is a poignant indictment of Babylon’s evils and sins. In Isaiah 5, God addresses Jerusalem and the men of Judah for their moral corruption that existed on a national scale.

Corporate sins of the nation of Israel are quite numerous in the Old Testament. In many cases, the leader of the day repents on behalf of the nation (even if the nation itself does not buy into that repentance).

Many of the other prophets were sent to address corporate sin within Israel. Haggai later brought the accusation against Judah regarding their sin of forsaking the Lord and greedily hoarding their possessions. Even the prophet Jonah brought a message of repentance to the city of Nineveh, which presumes the existence of a city-wide presence of sin and evil. Nineveh's repentance and submission to God also points out a solution to the problem of corporate sin.

2 Chronicles 7:14, Daniel 9:20, Isaiah 6:5, Jeremiah 14:20, Nehemiah 1:6 and Lamentations 1 are just some examples of corporate confession (some of these have also been referred to as identificational confession).

In the New Testament, many "households" are saved and repent as one. In Revelation, whole churches are addressed and rebuked.

1 John 2:2 puts corporate sin in a separate category to individual sin. The good news is that Christ's death atones for individual and corporate sins.

Can I stop there?

Posted by: Graeme 31 Mar, 2008 - 16:48:50

Oh, and about them being "new" sins, I think these are Biblical.

In Genesis we are told to be stewards of the earth, so anything we do which is not stewardlike is sinful.

In the Torah Law we are told to have a Jubilee mindset, which involved redistributing wealth, so obscene wealth is sinful too.

In terms of these being subjective and not objective, that is true of all the sins, even those in the 10 Commandments. How much coveting is too much? When does withholding the truth becoming lying? When does hating your brother become murder? When does swearing become sinful?

Finding the line between bad behaviour and sin is always difficult, but just because it is difficult doesn't mean we shouldn't try!

Posted by: Graeme 31 Mar, 2008 - 16:59:53

Graeme, Thanks for your prompt reply and thoughtful answers. I will look at these passages more closely and consider what you have said before I respond/question agian. Thanks, this was most helpful.

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