The traditional understanding of clarity is that which reveals; mystery is that which conceals. Clarity gives information, mystery confuses the mind. Clarity makes known, mystery celebrates the unknown. Clarity shines light so we can see clearly; mystery blows smoke in our eyes so our vision blurs. Clarity is the opposite of mystery, for mystery says, "I don't know, I can't explain it, it's a mystery." Detectives are brought in to find an answer to the mystery of who killed Dr Black, and how, and why. This understanding sets up clarity and mystery as binary opposites, forcing us to choose between them.

However, allow me to suggest that instead of these two protagonists being like a light switch - either on or off, either one or the other - they are more like dance partners, swirling around each other in dynamic interaction. Sometimes the one partner leads and the other follows, and sometimes the roles are reversed, like an Englishman learning to sokkie for the first time.

With this metaphor of dance giving us a picture which suggests the playful interaction between clarity and mystery, let's now take a look at how this might impact religion.

Technorati Tags: How (not) to speak of God

What would the purpose of this dance be? Or is there a purpose at all?

Maybe I should ask: How then does the dance then contribute? Enjoyment, excitement, understanding, pleasure, purpose? How do we know if God sees the relationship between the two as a akin to a dance? What if he has something else in mind.

Sorry for all the questions - I just want to try and understand you more on this.

Posted by: Stephen M 08 Sep, 2007 - 12:43:54

Absolutely there is a purpose to this dance! The purpose is to draw us closer into God - to being transformed into his likeness. This isn't a destination (at least, not in this reality) but a journey - a continual "becoming".

First we don't understand something (mystery) then we do (clarity), then we see that our answer draws us deeper into the mystery of God, and so we have this interaction, this dance between these 2.

Does God think of mystery and clarity being involved in a dance? I don't know. Is this a helpful metaphor? I think so, because it talks about transformation, and about *living* (dancing is something which cannot be understood from the sidelines but has to be entered into).

It's also interesting to see people who talk about the Trinity as best understood as a dance of love.

Posted by: Roger Saner 08 Sep, 2007 - 16:39:30

Hey Roger, You're too bright-a boy! READ: Hebrews 12 v 1+2 Philippians 1 v 3-6 Hope to see/engage with you at the wedding! CDE

Posted by: cde 08 Sep, 2007 - 21:43:03

Thanks Chukee - these are great verses :) Don't know who you are, but make sure you say, "Hi!" at the wedding - I'm looking forward to it!

Posted by: Roger Saner 08 Sep, 2007 - 22:22:53

Hey Jude/Jew/Judas?!
You decide.
No - You're already CHOSEN!!
Man, 'tis good chattin' ter ya!
(Like Peter round the fire-place, jus' B4
he denied the LORD?)

"Have-I-got-news-for-you?"

HE's Gotcha!!! (Don't fight/argue!)
I Love u with the Love of the Lord!
cde

Posted by: cde 08 Sep, 2007 - 22:37:16

"Pray and Argue SCRIPTURE?!

cde

Posted by: cde 08 Sep, 2007 - 22:40:37

Any time you feel like making sense, and any time you want to stop sounding like a spam bot, you're most welcome.

Posted by: Roger Saner 08 Sep, 2007 - 22:50:09

ROGER - "Hold fast the Faithful Word as YOU have been taught that YOU might be-able by Sound Doctrine both to exhort, encourage, uplift and convince them "Gainsayers"

Scripture seth such!
Titus 1 : 9

Posted by: cde 08 Sep, 2007 - 22:58:41

Well, I'm not a city elder/Bishop/overseer, as that verse in Titus applies to - and I drink wine. Darn! I hear what you're saying, though, and I have a lot of un-learning to do, so that finally I'm able to hear what Scripture is, in fact, saying. Hang around - over the next week I'll be posting more about "Clarity vs Mystery" and also talking about that in relation to Scripture and to God.

Posted by: Roger Saner 08 Sep, 2007 - 23:10:55

Okay - Roger, that makes sense, but then it would seem to me that the general movement in the dance is from mystery to clarity and not the other way around. Mystery will continually resurface but it only resurfaces for us to 'dance' with it and push towards clarity. So on that basis we should be suspect of any dance that is not pushing towards clarity, that is not prepared to stick its neck out and make claims (at some point) for clarity.

I guess what I'm getting at is this: We can't keep asking questions forever, we need to start landing somewhere otherwise the mystery dominates the dance. I know that many people look at the EC and get a sense that some voices are refusing to land and it frustrates them (and me) intensely. This world doesn't only need us to ask those questions (dance with the mystery - and believe me I value this element of the EC highly), this world need us to land too because quite simply our landing brings hope (sorry to bring up a new metaphor - the airplane!).

I love asking these questions - I love going back and looking at my doctrines from all angles, testing myself and my beliefs. But I love this world too, because Jesus loved it and died for it and I have to start drawing conclusions from these questions in order to show this world in word and deed that Jesus desperately loves them.

Does that make sense?

Posted by: Stephen 08 Sep, 2007 - 23:17:05

Sorry Roger wasn't clear as to which post I was responding to. I was responding to your initial reply to my first question.

Posted by: Stephen 08 Sep, 2007 - 23:19:55

Thanks Stephen - your comment makes sense. If we use the concept of "mystery" to hide behind and say, "I don't need to give any clear answer because, well, mystery lets me do that," then I think we've misunderstood - and mis-used - the term. Mystery, as I hope to show in my follow-up posts, is not the opposite of clarity (i.e. it's not "confusion"). So, in other words, embracing something which is mysterious does not prevent us from saying anything define about the experience.

The trap the EC can easily fall into is to describe the dance without actually dancing! Unfortunately, the EC is not going to come up with a theological definition of itself because, as you know, although it is a conversation about theology it is not going to be know for its innovative and new theological creeds. I don't think it's trying to offer new answers; rather, it's looking at the ways we hold the answers we already have. In this way, it transcends the debate over "Which doctrine is *right*?" and invites us into the dance with God.

You've said that you see the general movement being from mystery to clarity. I'm not so sure - that's why I've used the metaphor of dance. Instead of it being a linear journey in a single direction, I think the journey folds in upon itself, like chocolate being stirred into a vanilla cake mixture (ok, I'm really experimenting with these metaphors!!!). I'm not married, but I hear married people talking about their spouse in some ways as an "unknown" - even when they've been married for many years. In this case, the beloved - even through many years and many experiences together - always has "more" to them. The clarity is that they are known by their spouse; the mystery is that there is always more to discover and to love. If someone asked the husband to talk about their spouse, there would be much conversation...and yet, the conversation would not sum up the wife totally, as there's always more.

In this way we cannot avoid speaking about God and Scripture and Doctrine - and not even avoid taking definite positions on them - but the way in which we hold those positions is what the EC is about. I'll post more on that later.

Posted by: Roger Saner 08 Sep, 2007 - 23:55:15

Yes, exaclty - the husband wife illustration is great - but notice that the husband does still, hopefully, grow in knowledge of his wife everday. There's always room to know more and so the mystery remains but at the same time the husband should be developing some pretty concrete knowledge about his wife (Is there not perhaps a linear progression that happily co-exists with the dance?).

Question for the EC can we have concrete knowledge beyond say the Nicene Creed? I think we can and we must because God's revelation didn't come to us in the form of the Nicene Creed, it came in the form of a story of redemption in the scriptures. If we reduce our concrete knowledge to the Nicene Creed then surely we're not doing justice to the beautiful story of redemption.

Posted by: Stephen 09 Sep, 2007 - 08:05:15

Hmmm..maybe the linear progression is that the cake gets baked after all, even during the folding in of chocolate and vanilla. So maybe we get to bake the cake and eat it too?! (sorry!)

Those in the EC *must* build something more than the creeds (obviously - for the creeds don't tell us what our stance should be on, say, global warming) but I don't think that "something more" is going to be expressed creedally. As you say - back to Scripture, not reducing it to a single reading but understanding - and participating - in the story of redemption. Stay tuned!

Posted by: Roger Saner 09 Sep, 2007 - 12:03:19

Quote: "....rather, it's looking at the ways we hold the answers we already have...."

I have read this kind of statement many times in terms of the EC conversation and still don't understand what is meant by the phrase 'the ways we HOLD' the answers/beliefs/etc. It *sounds* wonderful and very intellectually and spiritually challenging, but means next to nothing to me at present. I'd like to understand. Could you perhaps explain this this a bit for me?

Thanks!!

Posted by: Ellie 09 Sep, 2007 - 12:16:46

I suppose what makes us afraid of mystery is that without clarity we struggle to know how to act - and we want to act. We want to make a difference in the world, and we believe that if we have more clarity, we will be better "actors". This reminded me of a quote from Henri Nouwen which I found quite helpful in the midst of so much mystery: :”be patient towards all that is unsolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves…Do not seek answers which cannot be given you because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer…".

Posted by: Rowan 11 Sep, 2007 - 00:46:51

I understand conversation (and dance for that matter) to move in a direction, but not in a linear way. It pulses rather than proceeds in a straight line.

This pulse might mean moving between clarity and mystery, back and forth. We can't possibly find a static answer to this - it's constantly in a state of becoming. As we enter the mystery, things become clearer. Based on this clarity, we look at the world anew. That spawns new questions, which raises new mysteries. And so on.

Posted by: nic paton 11 Sep, 2007 - 13:29:40

Ya but nic that's not moving 'back and forth' in the strictest sense. In moving back and forth from mystery to clarity you are also moving forward in knowledge - unless we completely disregard everything we learned the the previous times that we moved back and forth between mystery and clarity. Linear movement has to exist on that basis.

Posted by: Stephen 11 Sep, 2007 - 15:13:34

To be a little clearer then, I am referring to the wave motion of say light, or even a fish. Its side to side oscillations are what drive it forwards.

I am not saying we don't grow continuously, and we can't unknow what we know, but there is a call to "forget" in order to grow.

I quote Crowded Houses anthemic "All I ask"

All I ask is to live each moment
Free from the last
Take the road forgotten
Don't leave me here
Oh please let me stay
Far from familiar things
All I ask is to live each moment
All I ask is to live each moment
Free from the last
Strange roads going nowhere in particular
All I ask is to live each moment
All I ask is to live each moment
Free from the last
Free from the last
All I ask

Posted by: nic paton 12 Sep, 2007 - 09:07:13

<p>You will need to do a little bit of Prom Dressesand visit some Cheap Prom Dress to find out the important information you are not familiar with buying Prom Dresses 2010. It's always good to take the Prom Dress and check prices and see Prom Dresses 2010 you can afford. Everybody has a Cheap Prom Dresses taking some time out to check your local Plus Size Prom Dresses can really help you with your plan.Typically the type of <a href="http://www.wholesale-weddinggowns.com/plus-size-

Posted by: 3333333333333 28 May, 2010 - 08:05:23

The Wholesale Wedding Gowns belonging to the an excellent high quality Wedding Gown needs to be colorless the clarity or Cheap Wedding Dresses, the capacity of the light to pass readily round the Low Price Wedding Dresses the cut will be the shape of the wholesale wedding gown the cut may also have an effect on the actual short wedding gown all appearance of the designer wedding gown.A poorly cut one will not casual wedding gown. The carat is the weigh from the formal wedding gownthat will have an impact the strapless wedding gowncost of the diamond.If you are trying to find diamond jewelry which simple wedding gown big and striking then a asscher or emerald cheap wedding gown is going to do.

Posted by: wedding 28 May, 2010 - 09:11:18

<p>Becoming evening dresses wholesale engaged nowadays regrettably evening dressses is often much more about how big the cheap evening dress rather than feelings between the couple. eveningdresses-wholesale.com isn't really hard to acquire engagement bands below $300 for evening dresses 2010 who continueplus size evening dresses correctly. First of all, perhaps you have considered second-handlong evening dresses? A lot of jewelry retailers or even pawn sexy evening dresses may have a selection of used engagements short evening dresses to buy. All the rings themselves discount evening dresses appear nothing like second-hand and formal evening dresses are polished in addition to shinned just like new. Becoming engaged nowadays regrettably designer evening dresses is often much more about how big the vintage evening dresses rather than feelings between the elegant evening dresses couple. It isn't really hard to acquire engagement Simple Wedding Dress below $300 for those who continue Simple Wedding Gowns correctly. First of all, perhaps you have considered second-hand Plus size Simple Wedding Dresses? A lot of jewelry retailers or even pawn 2010 Simple Wedding Dresses may have a selection of used cheap simple wedding dress bands to buy. All the plus size simple wedding dress appear nothing like second-hand and they are polished in addition to shinned just like new.In the event lace simple wedding dress used isn't for you personally the potential of getting engagementsummer simple wedding dress below $300 holds fine. There isn't any white simple wedding dress is actually just saying “don’t be fussy” simply because in the end your engagement mature simple wedding dress no matter the price can have sentimental value and that is precious. You really can afford to end up being fussy simply because you will discover a huge variety elegant simple wedding dress now at your spending budget. pretty simple wedding dress major aspect to think about is the time of the year you purchase the engagement ring. If you're the old romantic and buy the engagement unique simple wedding dress right before Valentine's Day you will most likely be spending at the highest time and whenever Victorian simple wedding dress are usually a bit more compared to other months. The month of january is excellent or even search for shutting down sales.

Posted by: wedding 01 Jun, 2010 - 09:15:16